RobbieBlokeToys Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Okay, I'm angry. I just spent £151 buying a theme from Prestashop for my store, and I can't download it. It says "Awaiting Validation". I started live chat, and they're telling me I need to send them "Government ID" before they'll give me access to my purchase! I think I'm about to file a claim with PayPal and demand a refund, then go to someone else to develop a theme for me. PrestaShop, I am really fed up with you and really starting to wish I'd used another system. I've never heard of anything so ridiculous as this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellini13 Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Unfortunately in this day and age, merchants have to protect themselves from chargebacks and disputes. Prestashop is not immune to this, especially since they sell to such a large marketplace. This unfortunately impacts customers that have good intentions, but does dissuade customers that have bad intentions, and better protects merchants from customers that purchase a digital product, but then dispute/chargeback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieBlokeToys Posted March 1, 2016 Author Share Posted March 1, 2016 Well if that's the reason they inconvenience buyers then it's clearly not working, I've had to file a dispute with PP within an hour of ordering because of this, and because their customer service person cut off discussion and stopped responding. All retailers have to deal with chargebacks and disputes, it's part of doing business on line. You don't deal with that by accusing all customers of god knows what, demanding "government ID" from everyone and asking for personal information to be emailed to you before you give the customer what they paid for. This is terrible business practice, it's sinister, it's suspicious, and people should be concerned when any company behaves in this way. No one should be sending copies of personal documents and ID to random email addresses just to get access to something they have already paid for. The result of this is that there has been a dispute claim, I will be getting my money back, and I won't be buying anything else from Presta. I've just bought another theme (and probably a better one) from somewhere else, and I'll be advising everyone else I know to do the same after this experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellini13 Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 I never said it was a great solution, and buying a physical product online is much different than buying a digital product online, so don't try to compare the 2. If you buy a physical product from me, the customer will have a much harder time with a dispute or chargeback, since I can easily prove that the merchandise was shipped and delivered. You will lose your dispute or chargeback. However a digital product does not have the same seller protections, so the merchant must take steps to protect themselves. If you do not agree with the business practice, then just move on as you did. Making a big stink about it just shows your immaturity and failure to realize WHY they are doing this. This is terrible business practice, it's sinister, it's suspicious, and people should be concerned when any company behaves in this way. Put yourself in Prestashop's shoes, they can say the exact same thing to you. There is likely something odd that came up while they were validating your order, something that tripped a fraud alert of some sort. So they are just protecting themselves. I would do the same exact thing. The result of this is that there has been a dispute claim, I will be getting my money back, and I won't be buying anything else from Presta. I've just bought another theme (and probably a better one) from somewhere else, and I'll be advising everyone else I know to do the same after this experience. Obviously you are entitled to this. I would not share my ID with anyone either. But don't act like Prestashop is this unknown entity that you should not be trusting. If you walked into a retail store and tried to pay them using a check, they would ask you for a drivers license or ID as well. The concept here is the same. They are trying to ensure you are the owner of the Paypal account and authorized to make this purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieBlokeToys Posted March 2, 2016 Author Share Posted March 2, 2016 I never said it was a great solution, and buying a physical product online is much different than buying a digital product online, so don't try to compare the 2. I will compare the two, because legally there is no difference in the eyes of the customer - which is what I am in this instance. When a customer buys a product they expect to receive that product, the nature of that product is irrelevant when it comes to selling regulations and the rights of the consumer. Making a big stink about it just shows your immaturity and failure to realize WHY they are doing this. They ended communication with me, after behaving suspiciously, so I am absolutely right to make a big stink about this. I was in the process of attempting to resolve this with PrestaShop when their "customer service" person cut off communication and stopped assisting. If you had just paid a company £150 and they refused to give you access to the product you purchased, while demanding you send personal information about yourself to them by email, and then ignored you when attempting to find out how to resolve it, you would probably be exactly the same. But don't act like Prestashop is this unknown entity that you should not be trusting. I am absolutely right to be wondering why a company is willing to take my money, and then demand that I email personal information to someone I don't know before being given access to that product. If there was a problem with the purchase this should have been made clear BEFORE taking any payment. If PrestaShop has concerns about selling products to certain buyers then it needs to make that clear and explain the process BEFORE they accept that purchase. Legally, once you accept payment for a product or service you are expected to deliver that product or service, you cannot start adding new conditions AFTER you have formed that contract, having not informed the customer of these measures before they agreed to that contract. If you walked into a retail store and tried to pay them using a check, they would ask you for a drivers license or ID as well. The concept here is the same. They are trying to ensure you are the owner of the Paypal account and authorized to make this purchase. The process here is absolutely not the same, because I would be well aware of the requirement to give ID before having paid them any money for a product they then refuse to give me. The PayPal account has all the same information as my PrestaShop account, this can clearly be seen when any purchase is made. They would (presumably) have had access to exactly the same information on my PP account which would have matched the PS account. And this brings me to the main point of why this farce was so ridiculous... providing any "government ID" would have done absolutely nothing to improve their security or mine. The information was already there, from our business site to my PS account to the PP account making the purchase, sending them another image of an ID card I don't have, a passport, a drivers licence etc, would have made absolutely no difference - other than making ME less secure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestaHeroes USA Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 In some cultures to establish a business requires a business bank account and to open a business bank account requires an established business. Merchants don't need to protect themselves from charge-backs with in-house rules, they should use payment gateways that measure a transactions risk, which PYPL does not. If a charge is reported as suspicious (at transaction time) then of course auto hold for review but for the 99% to be punished is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieBlokeToys Posted March 2, 2016 Author Share Posted March 2, 2016 If a charge is reported as suspicious (at transaction time) then of course auto hold for review but for the 99% to be punished is ridiculous. PayPal cleared the payment ( I paid by card from my business PayPal account, one that has been processing payments for 6 years). This was exclusively about Prestashop taking payment successfully, then withholding the purchased item and demanding government ID from the customer before delivering what they had paid for. Nothing was flagged as "suspicious" by PayPal at all, this was all an action by Prestashop. In comparison, this would be like you or I selling something in our store, accepting payment for it, then contacting the customer and telling them that we're not sending it to them unless they email us a copy of their passport. All sane and rational people would realize that this is not acceptable business practice. If a PrestaShop account has been flagged by their system then they are required to notify the customer and NOT accept any order or payment from that customer. They legally cannot accept payment for that product and then make further demands before delivering that product, this is in breach of the contract they themselves have made with the customer prior to purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellini13 Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) Merchants don't need to protect themselves from charge-backs with in-house rules Merchants DO NEED to protect themselves from Chargebacks. Every payment gateway will tell you this... Here is a great article from Stripe that speaks about this. https://support.stripe.com/questions/avoiding-fraud-and-disputes they should use payment gateways that measure a transactions risk, which PYPL does not. If a charge is reported as suspicious (at transaction time) then of course auto hold for review but for the 99% to be punished is ridiculous. And perhaps that is exactly what happened here... Why do you assume that Prestshop does not have internal rules that they follow, and perhaps one of those rules triggered which is why they are asking for evidence. Prestashop cannot call Paypal to validate this purchase, nor can they validate that this person was authorized to make this purchase. Trust me, I have been down that road with Paypal. The only thing Prestashop can do is ask the customer to provide some evidence, which is what they did. The customer does not have to agree with Prestashop's policy, but they do agree to the terms and conditions, which the customer probably never bothered to read and just blindly agreed to them Furthermore, Prestashop should have refunded the purchase immediately once the customer refused to provide evidence. That is the only thing Prestashop did wrong here. But I will not fault Prestashop for... 1) Protecting themselves from a possible dispute or chargeback 2) Protecting the THEME author from a possible dispute or chargeback, and the refund of a sale. Edited March 2, 2016 by bellini13 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestaHeroes USA Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 we will not see eye to eye on anything Michael, sometimes I post on one you have have just to twist your underwear. Retired as Lead Technical Support Credit Card Authorizations American Express, Phoenix. I know difference between mickey mouse operation and one that is not. Not like pypl has Platinum card. Also I don't assume the original poster is a scammer, why would I? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieBlokeToys Posted March 2, 2016 Author Share Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) Why do you assume that Prestshop does not have internal rules that they follow, and perhaps one of those rules triggered which is why they are asking for evidence. Retailers cannot accept payment for items without making you aware of the process. When a retailer accepts payment for a product or service they are signing an agreement with the consumer - that agreement cannot then be changed after the customer has paid for that product or service. No one is suggesting that Prestashop has no right to mitigate risk, but that has to be done according to law, and according to the contract they are creating with the customer. They did not do that in this instance, because they accepted the payment and THEN changed the terms. The only thing Prestashop can do is ask the customer to provide some evidence, which is what they did. AFTER already taking payment for the purchase, and almost 24 hours later have STILL not refunded that purchase. Furthermore, Prestashop should have refunded the purchase immediately once the customer refused to provide evidence. That is the only thing Prestashop did wrong here. No, what they did wrong here was accept payment through a Prestashop account and then refuse to provide that purchased item unless further criteria are met, criteria that the buyer was NOT made aware of prior to purchase. You cannot accept payment for a product, then change the terms the customer agreed to arbitrarily, it's really as simple as that. If you are running a shop, you cannot create an agreement and accept payment for a product and then start demanding more from the customer before supplying that product. Edited March 2, 2016 by RobbieBlokeToys (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellini13 Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 They did not do that in this instance, because they accepted the payment and THEN changed the terms. Did you read the terms and conditions when you made the purchase? If you had, then you would have found the following statements. PrestaShop reserves the right to freeze a payment in order to make any verifications required by the law, in particular, concerning money laundering.PrestaShop reserves the right to freeze the download of an Addon if it suspects that there is a risk of fraudulent payment in order to proceed with the payment verifications You cannot accept payment for a product, then change the terms the customer agreed to arbitrarily, it's really as simple as that. If you are running a shop, you cannot create an agreement and accept payment for a product and then start demanding more from the customer before supplying that product. Well in fact, they didn't change their terms, you have simply failed to read and understand them. I would suggest you avoid making statements about illegal business practices and/or shady business practices. Again, you have every right to disagree or not want to follow them... however don't blindly accept terms and conditions, and then complain that they were not followed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieBlokeToys Posted March 2, 2016 Author Share Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) The only problem with that you've just written is that they don't provide any opportunity to agree to their terms and conditions prior to payment. I have just gone through the process again and at no point did it ask me to confirm any terms. The terms we agree to as consumers are standard, and these include NOT being charged for goods or services and then the agreement (one which PS DID NOT require me to agree to) being changed AFTER payment. Go ahead and go through the buying process yourself, you can do so as a guest and pay using PayPal, at no point are you required to confirm terms and conditions - therefore, you are agreeing to standard terms. In the UK (and most of Europe) you are required by law to explain any unusual terms to a consumer before they pay you. When goods are purchased you are forming a contract between customer and seller, this is a standard agreement we all agree to with reasonable expectations of service. If any aspect of the process is OUTSIDE of that expectation, the seller HAS to make it clear to the consumer and HAS to have their agreement to that non-standard contract BEFORE accepting payment. Edited March 2, 2016 by RobbieBlokeToys (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellini13 Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 terms and conditions are agreed to during the checkout process when you create a new account. There is no guest checkout option. I suppose you are saying you did the "Login with Paypal account" option, which ultimately creates an addons account. I'm not sure where you get the "standard terms" from. There is a terms and conditions at the bottom of the page, and during the checkout process. Look, I understand you do not agree with their policy. I've said it multiple times. Get your refund during the dispute and move on. Its a real shame that no one from the PS addons team has reviewed or replied. But I guess that's what happens when you post a topic about the addons store, in the general forum. Perhaps the better place would have been the Prestashop Addons forum. So you have now been educated on how Prestashop validates their orders, and you are also now aware of their terms and conditions. Have a nice day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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